10.27.06
Using ‘Aql and Logic
Someone from another blog (http://eteraz.wordpress.com), which I occasionally read and usually disagree with, commented on the use of reason and logic. This person is a respectful individual, so I was a bit shocked and suprised. I thought it would be nice to respond to his statements on my blog. I will quote his comment and then my response will follow.
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Reason does not provide an approach to Allah.
If the Path to understanding Divinty was paved (even half the way) on Reason, the truth of Religion should have been discovered and widely known by now.
Muta’zhilis would rule the world.
As it stands, reason is applied to religion every day: look at the results. Few people are enlightened and religion is a force for terrible things just as much as for good.
Reason’s road is a dead end.
There is a quote from the Holy Prophet that goes something like: “Whatever you discern with your mind and perception is your creation. It is an idol and not worth worshipping.”
But we have to know the limitations.
“Reason does not provide an approach to Allah.”
That is an absurd claim. Reason and intellect was endowed to us by Allah (swt), so that we may distinguish good from evil. Hence, leading towards understanding Him and His perfect system.
It is funny how this person uses the Muta’zallah school to justify his thoughts and views. People are at loss because we are not using our logic! The Mu’tazallites are a different issue altogether because they only used logic. There is a big difference between using solely reason and using it as just one source. We must use other sources that go hand in hand with it such as the Quran and Sunnah.
Logic and intellect is an important component in understanding Islam and the shari’a. Logic and rational must be exerted in order for us to succeed!
Reasoning or logic is called muntaq in Islamic terminology. In fact, it is a seperate branch of science in its own right. For example understanding a hadith or tradition of the Prophet (saw) one needs to understand the logic of hadith and how to deal with conflicting ahadith and contextualizing it properly. The hadith this person mentioned obviously was de-contexualize and plus no reference was given anyway.
The last statement this person makes, I do agree with. We need to rationally understand our limitations, because we have been fashioned, shaped, and placed on this earth by our Protector, Creator and Sustainer.
ZamZamRose Said:
October 28, 2006 at 12:31 am
You cant seperate reason from religion. They come hand in hand like PB&J
Buzz Kill Said:
October 28, 2006 at 3:26 pm
You can. You must.
Let’s not conjoin subjects, let’s get our terms straight:
1. Religion: Pursuit of secular or spiritual truth?
2. Reason: Objective truth or relative truth?
3. God: In space and time or free from space and time?
Once you know what you are talking about, you will know whether reason has a place with religion or not.
It is a little subtle.
Buzz Kill Said:
October 28, 2006 at 3:38 pm
The hadith this person mentioned obviously was de-contexualize and plus no reference was given anyway.
How do you know it was? And what if I give you a source? Would you believe then? Or would your stubborn mind still reject?
Ha!
Let me ask you a preliminary question: Is reason based on comparison? Is there any comparison to Allah? Are we commanded to worship any besides Allah?
Show me the reason.
Genius….LOL
Buzz Kill Said:
October 28, 2006 at 4:43 pm
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA~!!!!
ZamZamRose Said:
October 29, 2006 at 1:32 am
The Quran reminds us several times that it is the disbelievers that accused our beloved Prophets of being “men deprived of reason”
[17:47] We know best what they listen to when they listen to you, and when they take counsel secretly, when the unjust say: You follow only a man deprived of reason.
[17:101] And certainly We gave Musa nine clear signs; so ask the children of Israel. When he came to them, Firon said to him: Most surely I deem you, O Musa, to be a man deprived of reason.
[25:8] Or (why is not) a treasure sent down to him, or he is made to have a garden from which he should eat? And the unjust say: You do not follow any but a man deprived of reason.
It was the disbelievers that accused the believers of lacking reason, so why are you following in their footsteps and claiming that the followers of Islam lack reason in their beliefs?
Buzz Kill Said:
October 29, 2006 at 6:44 am
You don’t answer the questions I asked nor does your example apply to me.
Reason would show you that. So, if there is one deprived, perhaps you should look closer to home.
If you can’t answer, nor perhaps even understand, then simple and obvious change of subject is just a sad attempt to cover the truth.
Better to admit you don’t know.
ZamZamRose Said:
October 29, 2006 at 9:30 am
Here are the answers to your questions.
Is reason based on comparison?
Comparison may be a part of the reasoning process but it is not the sole basis of reason.
Is there any comparison to Allah?
No. There is none like Allah SWT
Are we commanded to worship any besides Allah?
No.
Buzz Kill Said:
October 29, 2006 at 10:45 am
Please provide an example of reason where comparison, contrast and consideration of multiplicity is not utilized.
You can consult reason, knowledge, epistemology or any number of philosophical terms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_priori_and_a_posteriori_%28philosophy%29
“Reason” as it applies in the Qur’an should be more closely examined.
17:47
In each case you quoted, only one in 3 popular translations used “Reason” while “Bewitched” and “Sorcery” were more prevalently used. Your case is weak.
The word used in all three Ayahs is “Mashooran.” You should check to see if that is indeed related to “reason” in the context you intended
017.047
YUSUFALI: We know best why it is they listen, when they listen to thee; and when they meet in private conference, behold, the wicked say, “Ye follow none other than a man bewitched!”
PICKTHAL: We are Best Aware of what they wish to hear when they give ear to thee and when they take secret counsel, when the evil-doers say: Ye follow but a man bewitched.
SHAKIR: We know best what they listen to when they listen to you, and when they take counsel secretly, when the unjust say: You follow only a man deprived of reason.
17:101
017.101
YUSUFALI: To Moses We did give Nine Clear Signs: As the Children of Israel: when he came to them, Pharaoh said to him: “O Moses! I consider thee, indeed, to have been worked upon by sorcery!
PICKTHAL: And verily We gave unto Moses nine tokens, clear proofs (of Allah’s Sovereignty). Do but ask the Children of Israel how he came unto them, then Pharaoh said unto him: Lo! I deem thee one bewitched, O Moses.
SHAKIR: And certainly We gave Musa nine clear signs; so ask the children of Israel. When he came to them, Firon said to him: Most surely I deem you, O Musa, to be a man deprived of reason
25:8
025.008
YUSUFALI: “Or (Why) has not a treasure been bestowed on him, or why has he (not) a garden for enjoyment?” The wicked say: “Ye follow none other than a man bewitched.”
PICKTHAL: Or (why is not) treasure thrown down unto him, or why hath he not a paradise from whence to eat? And the evil-doers say: Ye are but following a man bewitched.
SHAKIR: Or (why is not) a treasure sent down to him, or he is made to have a garden from which he should eat? And the unjust say: You do not follow any but a man deprived of reason.
.
Buzz Kill Said:
October 29, 2006 at 11:01 am
I am the beneficiary of Shia Sufi teaching and I believe in the same manner as the one hosting this blog.
Finally, I will leave you with these wise words and say my salaams:
“Imam Ali said,
“In order to know Allah, we must know ourselves.”
We must be sincere in all of our actions. We need to purify our hearts and souls for Allah because He is worthy and deserving. We must dig deep into our hearts and remove any dark spots developing, before it is too late. If we wait too long our heart will be covered with darkness and it will be next to impossible to cleanse. We must continue renewing our intentions and reminding ourselves about why we are doing what we are. It is similar to cancer. If we catch the caner early on, its possible to extract the cancer cells and possible survive. However, if we wait too long the cancer cells will spread into our blood stream and bodily organs. And that will be tantamount to our destruction I will conclude with a saying from Imam Ali (a), which I want everyone here to ponder upon. He stated,
My God, I do not worship You in fear of Your Fire, nor in desire for Your Paradise, but I worship You because I find You worthy of worship.”
Only the truth knows the Truth and Amir al-Moumenin (RA), I believe, was a champion of reason and also well aware of the limitations of reason, BUT!!! also the ability of the human being to know the truth beyond limitations of time, space, reason and perception.
I wish you well in your worship and your search.
http://www.ias.org
naqvia Said:
October 29, 2006 at 3:57 pm
Buzzkill,
I think you have missed the entire point of my response. I stated,
“There is a big difference between using solely reason and using it as just one source. We must use other sources that go hand in hand with it such as the Quran and Sunnah.”
Please keep that in mind. You stated that reason does not provide an approach to Allah and I contested that claim you made.
Muntaq (or reasoning) must be used and is used by all of the traditional schools of Islam. Using purely reason, and using reason alone can lead to disaster - I think we agree with that, but throwing all reason and rational thinking out the window will also lead us to disaster.
Buzz Kill Said:
October 29, 2006 at 9:06 pm
Please keep that in mind. You stated that reason does not provide an approach to Allah and I contested that claim you made.
Contest it all you like, you have not shown any evidence to counter my claim. You have to be precise when you speak of religious matters and since you speak publically, you should be extra careful not to be simplistic.
You are mixing following hadith and living a moral, healthy life with “Approach to Allah.” These are not necessarily the same.
One can use reason to decide that eat or drink or keep relations in certain order or according to wisdom, advice or trial and error.
What has this to do with worshipping Allah?
Reason can rightly be said to be a prerequisite among many to prepare a path towards Allah. But it, in itself, is not a tool or method to approach Allah and I have explained above why.
naqvia Said:
October 30, 2006 at 11:50 am
Buzz Kill,
Brother, the commandments of Allah (swt) dictate what “moral” and “healthy” are. And since it is defined by Allah (swt) it serves as an approach towards Him. If its defined by Allah (swt) it is also logical because he has endowed is with existence through his infinite mercy. Furthermore, obedience is a means for approach. We use our ‘aql in conjunction with the Quran and Sunnah in order to gain close proximity with our Creator.
My brother, if its (reason) a pre-requisite for the Path (like you stated), then its one way, tool, or source towards Him. This is true, because you cannot move forward if you do not complete the “pre-requisite.”
We must look at al-islam in its entirety and wholistically, rather than in a pin-hole mechanism. We cannot compartmentalize our religion, because our religion is a way of life. It is incomparable because of this very nature.
Buzz Kill Said:
October 30, 2006 at 3:38 pm
My brother, if its (reason) a pre-requisite for the Path (like you stated), then its one way, tool, or source towards Him
You are confused.
Example: you must have balance to walk. You must walk to reach the mountain.
Having balance is NOT one way to reach the Mountain.
You see.
Related but not overlapping.
naqvia Said:
October 30, 2006 at 5:33 pm
Once again you have missed the point of my response. You need continued balance in order to walk towards the top. If you do not have that continued balance in you, you will fall and not be able to walk. Likewise you need to continously use your reasoning in conjunction with other sources in order to reach Him.
Buzz Kill Said:
October 30, 2006 at 6:39 pm
Balance is required to walk.
Having balance does not move you one step towards your destination.
Having reason is the same as myriad other prerequisites: heartbeat, pulse, consciousness, respiratory system.
Breathing can be said to be a step towards Allah as well but who thinks in such simplistic terms.
I have explained in detail in the first two comments as well as subsequent posts (1343, 1344, 1394, etc.)
Reason is good for Dunya, not Divine realms.
Allah commands us to do good in this world and the next. All perishes except the Face of your Lord. Nothing compares, so there is nothing “like unto” and with nothing to compare, there can be no reason. No logic.
If you cannot follow this, don’t insist that I am wrong.
Educate yourself in case I am right.
Ali Said:
October 31, 2006 at 8:17 am
Buzz Kill,
So I can better understand your POV, I have a question:
Can I reach Allah (swt) without the use of ‘Aql?
Wa Salaam,
Ali
Buzz Kill Said:
October 31, 2006 at 9:46 am
Look Brother
there are 2 matters:
1. Expressing truth, something I did on another site and was interrupted and challenged by you to explain and defend
2. Win an argument, something you seem intent on regardless of the Truth.
I will finish #1 and leave you to #2 since that is where your real intent lies.
You have changed from English terms to Arabic. From Reason or Rationality to Aql.
I never in any of my statements said, “Aql.” So know you want to know about “Aql.” This is a new subject and I will again educate you and tell you that you have again mixed your apples with your oranges.
Refer here for some information.
What I have said overall is according to the Wise and true as far as I can tell the truth.
We should be more interested in knowledge and less interested in winning arguments. The former leads to wisdom while the latter simply satisfies the ego and leads to destruction.
Beware and best wishes.
I’m done.
Ali Said:
October 31, 2006 at 11:08 am
FYI,
I don’t know you, I’ve never had a dialogue with you, today, yesterday, or ever. So now that this is cleared up, let’s continue…
Can I reach Allah (swt) without the use of ‘Aql?
Wa Salaam,
Ali
Buzz Kill Said:
October 31, 2006 at 12:34 pm
Allah knows best.
Salaam
naqvia Said:
November 1, 2006 at 2:01 pm
Buzzkill,
You are contradicting yourself and you are not making sense anymore. And now you have resorted to assumptions. Please let us try to use our ‘aql or reason
.
Sidrah Said:
November 3, 2006 at 6:38 am
i agree with what your saying, reason does have a place in Islam. we are not meant to follow Islam blindly because not only does that make us jahil but also makes our faith more fickle. After all the Quran says:
“Do not follow advice which you do not understand. Make detailed inquiries with your eyes, ears and mind.Do not strut about proudly. You cannot possess the earth, and you cannot rival the mountains in stature.
-Qu’ran, Al-Isra, Surah 17:37 “.
having said that, there are some things we have to follow without reason because Allah (swt) hasn’t told us about the ‘whys’ and ‘hows’ of everything. but to say Reason has no place in religion means that you might as well be following Christianity and believe in the ‘holy spirit’.
naqvia Said:
November 3, 2006 at 10:53 am
“…we are not meant to follow Islam blindly because not only does that make us jahil but also makes our faith more fickle.’
“…but to say Reason has no place in religion means that you might as well be following Christianity and believe in the ‘holy spirit’.”
SubhanaAllah.. exactly my point